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IMHO the Senate finally did something right today and stalled a vote on the "Patriot Act". Please call, write, or e-mail your Senator with your views, it's too late for the House who has passed it. This bill would make the Patriot Act permanent "as is". Now remember I'm a conservative, not liberal BUT I believe in OUR rights as Americans The "Patriot Act" should be revised to limit the power of this act over normal Americans in day to day life and protect our constitutional rights. As it is, we have lost may of the rights our founding fathers gave us along with any potential terrorists. Perhaps you don't realize it but all ANYBODY would have to do is trump up some evidence against you and report it to any law enforcement office (and remember in small town America, and some big towns, some of those many various law officers might have grudges to settle or be influenced by some other interest. All it takes is one deputy sheriff or constable or whatever) under the guise of a possible terrorist threat. If forwarded to the Homeland Security Dept. you could then be arrested and held indefinitely with no charges, no phone call, no lawyer, no bail, your possessions seized, your property searched, phones or Internet tapped...virtually anything that would normally require a warrant can be done under the Patriot Act to ANYBODY as it is now. I'm all for catching terrorists before they strike but this law needs revision to protect the original rights of common citizens and if it's not revised NOW it becomes permanent "as is" and these all important rights our forefathers deemed so important could be gone forever. Just my 2 cents...off the soapbox, but proud of the Senate vote today.

There is oversight toThe Patriot Act. Very little to worry about as compared to a suicide bombing at a shopping mall. I would have agreed before 9-11, but not now. Original "rights" before TPA are mute if we're dead.

\\\STRIPES/// wrote on Dec 16, 2005:Go to #2

There is oversight toThe Patriot Act. Very little to worry about as compared to a suicide bombing at a shopping mall. I would have agreed before 9-11, but not now. Original "rights" before TPA are mute if we're dead.

You know we are good friends but this is one where the "devil is in the details". Really there is very little if any oversight to the Patriot Act depending on interpretation. There hasn't been a single terrorist attack in the USA since 9-11 and as I said, I certainly think they should have the right to "watch" potential terrorists. But total, unbridled, loss of so many constitutional rights for every citizen should outweigh the HS Dept. maybe having to go through an extra step or 2 along the way or a few "gray" areas in the Act maid more clear. Remember my problem is this is a permanent change in the constitutional rights of every citizen and the granting of virtually unlimited power to a newly created agency that has no proven track record yet. What is the harm in: Waiting a while by extending the current act for a period of time and "waiting & watching" rather than a permanent change right now? What's the hurry? They can keep on going as they are with an extension of the act while we continue to see what happens in Iraq, the hunt for Osama, etc.? And I may be a bit further out than some on this one... but I have always wondered why it is called "The Patriot Act"? Few "Acts" passed by our government have such noble names. Doesn't it put an emotional pull on your American heartstrings if someone is accusing you of being "unpatriotic"? We all feel our individual "patriotism" is one of the things that makes America great. By choosing such a name for this act doesn't it make you feel subconsciously less than a "Patriot" to question it or examine it very closely? It's easier to simply feel "I'm a patriot so I'm for the Patriot Act because I hate terrorists." (not referring to you personally,) just something I have wondered about as I have looked closely at the new Dept. of Homeland Security (Homeland is another "heartstrings" word, we all love our homeland and our security) and all the power bestowed on them in a manner unequaled in American history by this act. (Remember the Japanese did a little number on Pearl Harbor and while we stepped on the rights of some people back then, even after such an attack, equal in public terror to 9-11 back then, nobody changed everybody's constitutional rights and now history reveals what was done in stepping on those Japanese-American toes was unconstitutional and is viewed by history as shameful. With the "Patriot Act" in it's current form it isn't today. I just wonder why the rush to make it permanent? Things of this magnitude are not easily undone if you later decide it was a mistake.)

Ken will have to fun afoul of the Patriot Act before he realizes how fascist it is. It will not stop a determined terrorist. It has, however, prevented an FBI agent's wife from visiting her grandkids..... PS...don't call me if you have been arrested for violating the Patriot Act. Don't even think my name. I have no desire to become a part of the database. I have no desire to consort with known terrorists. I have no desire to live in Cuba.

A red traffic signal doesn't stop all cars either. I feel more threatened by terrorists than big brother.

This is one of those deals where freakshow Joes can call the Gov't and falsely accuse you of something, anything and you can get a taste of how they bastardized your rights. 99.9% of us shouldn't have a problem but, from my risk management point of view, if it can happen, it can happen...

SDS, you are exactly right! There is a chance of Patriot abuse and it could happen. These terrorist wacko's publically state they want to kill as many of us as they can at one time. A no brainer for me as to which is lessor of the two evils.

DON ,HOW RIGHT YOU ARE.WHAT HAS BEEN DONE WITH THE BORDERS SINCE 9-11? LOOK UP THE BILL OF RIGHT S AND SEE HOW MANY OF THOSE RIGHTS WE STILL ENJOY.THERE WAS ALOT OF BLOOD SHED FOR FREEDOM, AND I FOR ONE WILL NOT GIVE UP FREEDOM FOR SOME ONE ELSE TO TRY TO TAKE AWAY MY RIGHTS AND TELL ME IT IS FOR MY SAFETY.

To clarify: It's the sad state of affairs we have come to in the good old USA. I think we have a good example of the potential for abuse with the recent "news" of Bush's personally ordered wiretaps and whether or not they were legal. Again, don't get the wrong idea, I voted for him and at the time I thought Florida just had screwed up voting machines which was Florida's fault (although today the "whole story" makes it a bit questionable I still think he's probably better than Gore would have been but that's another matter of opinion for another day). But while watching the President's response to the critics the other day and his not to clear-cut "legal" reasoning for why he has the authority (which may be right or wrong, I don't know) the thing that made me uncomfortable was that the "tone" of the speech somehow strangely brought back memories of Richard Nixon & some speeches from long ago. Personally I think the system is pretty screwed up when we have the suspending of constitutional rights for everybody because it's "wrong" (read that politically incorrect) to "profile" potential terrorists. (And there isn't anything n the constitution that says a guy from wherever "over there" that keeps transferring large amounts of money or buying weird stuff has a right to not fit a "profile"...Or having no job but paying to take flying lessons and not caring about how to land) I am all for stopping terrorists but it's the method that bothers me. I had the experience of being pulled out of line for the "extra" search at an airport last year and couldn't help but note the irony that here I was a born & raised Texan that has no desire for any plane I am on to land in any manner besides on it's wheels at my destination and I am being swabbed for explosive residue by a woman who had on traditional middle eastern dress (head covering etc.) because somebody sued and it violated her rights to religion to have to wear a uniform like all the other guards (just seemed like something strange about that "picture") and the same people who sued to protect her religion and right to dress that way are currently suing to get "In God We Trust" taken off our money. (Seems stupid unless you are an atheist since it doesn't say which "God"; mine or Allah, or one of the hundreds of Hindu "Gods" or whatever so anybody besides an atheist should have no problem with it, and if you are one of the very small % of atheists in the country the money will still spend the same, just don't believe what it says ) But no, we can't "profile" for terrorists because that "power" might be abused and innocent people of other nationalities might have their "rights" violated (even if they are not US citizens and technically don't have those rights to start with), but we can take away every citizen's rights (including mine which I don't want to give up) to avoid the potential for offending a small minority that might accidentally fit a "profile" of a terrorist and keep us "politically correct". Another example: I heard the Bears fans in Chicago were madder than heck because Sunday (it was like 5 degrees there so everybody had on lots of bulky clothes) men & women were separated into different lines (disrupting families) and everybody had to strip off a few layers & be patted down (for security). The women's line moved slower because purses were searched (has any terrorist used any bombs in purses anywhere in the world as of yet?) So once inside it was a madhouse of people trying to get re-united in the crowds. Now the reason these fans were mad was because (a) there was no threats made about the game or stadium or even Chicago for that matter (b) the national "terror alert" was not elevated (c) AND in all the time since 9-1,1 from what they were saying, they have never done this, this way before... (I don't know, don't live there, wouldn't go to a football game below freezing if it was the Cowboys in the Super Bowl)l BUT Bears fans do have a reputation for bringing in a bit of "anti-freeze" and snacks & such when the weather is that cold they have on such bulky clothes, thus cutting some revenue from the concession stands. The guy I heard ranting about the abuse (and the fact his wife felt she was pretty well "felt up") was a long time Bears fan AND very conservative, very anti-terrorist talk show host from Chicago (who incidentally was cut off abruptly by the national news interviewer when he would not acknowledge the possibility that maybe this was for his family's protection from "terrorists".) I just started this thread to encourage you who agree (and if you don't I believe the constitution gives you that right) to let your Senators know an extension while we sort all this out is one thing but "permanent" is another story. History tells us many other great nation's fell and in some cases tyrants rose not all at once, but by giving up their rights bit by bit to the central government while being told it was "for their own good" or protection. This is an exaggeration as an example so please don't take it any other way: but Hitler got where he did by convincing an entire nation of intelligent, well-educated, capitalist people that the Jews were their enemy and must be stopped by giving up liberties and giving him more & more power a tiny bit at a time. I just want us to be VERY sure we don't use "terrorists" to unknowingly do what happened to them over many years a little bit at a time because people were led to believe there was a threat from Jews (or in our case radical Muslims). And this is not my radical side by any means, I believe we should shut down the space station & NASA and stop building our newest class of nuclear subs (and a bunch of other weapons systems) since the shuttle is doing no good, the space station is vague rumors that something good might come from it someday...just keep being patient & spending billions...(and let's go back to the moon while we are at it), and Russia has most of their nuclear subs rusting in ship graveyards for a lack of money to operate them, and we can already whip everybody else...and use a few of those many billions & talented engineers to find a way to make clean-cheap electricity, 100 mpg cars, wipe out the bird flu which is only 1 mutation from wiping out most of us, curing cancer or AIDS, or some other similar useless thing....oh or maybe rescuing federal highway funding which in case you didn't know will be broke by 2008 either stopping federal funds for the maintenance of our highways & bridges or coming up with a trillion dollars from somewhere in the next 2 years...they been spending the money for stuff without replacing it and nobody ever noticed till now...Oops)

We will be attacked again. Maybe 10 days or ten years but when it happens, bet the Thos. Jefferson "Give me liberty or give me death" folks (if they are still alive) will be complaining about the administration not doing enough. BTW Clinton did the same thing i.e. executive order to intercept off shore calls.

Ken ,with all do respect,I for one am not looking for anyone to protect me and my family,I am willing and able to look out for my neighbor and family. Why are we as a country not getting students on visas,or other people not here legally out? When Pearl Harbor was attacked what did we do? Pretty extreme. Look at New Orleans,people standing around with signs" send help",it drives me crazy.When S.F was destroyed by earth quake and fire,the United States did not rebuild with tax payers dollars.I guess the text of my rant is what happen to a strong nation with the means to look out and take care of eath other with out F.E.M.A. or some other Government angency do studies grants and debit cards to help take money out of my pocket and lose my rights at the same time.My parents taught and raised me not to look for some tit to suck on.Hard work and helping your fellow man in need is how this nation became great.Social Surcurity has a bad ring to it,because the socialpart has so strong meaning to me.

Ditto on the "social" security. Bush definitely dropped the ball w respect to New Orleans. That tragedy should never have happened. Intercepting calls from suspected terrorist from off shore is the right thing to do. As far as the international students, Mary Beth will go toe to toe with you. She is the director of Studies Abroad at the University of North Texas and is convinced what she is doing profoundly promotes world peace. I agree. Sending all the students home would not be in our best interest. Familiarity does away with suspicion. Recently the restrictions on who can be an exchange student have tightened significantly. Ain't it great to live in a country where we can agree to disagree!

Don... You've been drinking too much Cooled. There are enough nuts running around to keep the police busy. If you really think all it takes to get you investigated by the FBI would be a complant from a LEA you'd better wake up. How many international phone conversations have you had in the last year that you would have to worry about. The fact that we've haven't had any incidents of terrorism here in the US since 911 shows that we must be doing something right. How many people do you know of that have been rounded up by the government and wrongfully detained? Keep listening to those left wing crackpots and sooner or later you'll start believing them. Police agencies receive information every day, some is factual some is just plain BS and that's as far as it goes. Does the FBI do investigations on people you bet, but once its determined that there is nothing there that the end it. OOPS,,, except the flies. made up facts,,,phony pictures, you know all the stuff they make up just to make a case against you. The real truth, the Government has a secret agreement with the pharmaceutical companies and gets a kickback on the sales of all the Prozac and Zoloft they sell to all those people who believe there are Secret Agents behind every tree.

Truth is that non citizens have no constitutional protections, the courts only extend them as a courtesy. We have no need for this legislation.

Ummm..we get "profiled" as "Americans" we when go overseas. So what's the big deal if we "profile" some people as "potential bomb-carrying idiots". Much the same way I "profile" some guy who comes to my door and says he will fix my roof cheap as a "scam artist"....

topkote wrote on Dec 24, 2005:Go to #13

Don... You've been drinking too much Cooled. There are enough nuts running around to keep the police busy. If you really think all it takes to get you investigated by the FBI would be a complant from a LEA you'd better wake up. How many international phone conversations have you had in the last year that you would have to worry about. The fact that we've haven't had any incidents of terrorism here in the US since 911 shows that we must be doing something right. How many people do you know of that have been rounded up by the government and wrongfully detained? Keep listening to those left wing crackpots and sooner or later you'll start believing them. Police agencies receive information every day, some is factual some is just plain BS and that's as far as it goes. Does the FBI do investigations on people you bet, but once its determined that there is nothing there that the end it. OOPS,,, except the flies. made up facts,,,phony pictures, you know all the stuff they make up just to make a case against you. The real truth, the Government has a secret agreement with the pharmaceutical companies and gets a kickback on the sales of all the Prozac and Zoloft they sell to all those people who believe there are Secret Agents behind every tree.

Don't even get me started on the American pharmaceutical industry & their government schemes, including Zoloft & Prozac the first of which has shown a huge increase in suicides among users, especially younger ones. There is enough scandal over these 2 dangerous, mind-altering but legal drugs (which by the way were never developed for what they are now used to treat) that whole web sites are devoted to the subject (I do not personally believe there is such a thing as ADD, "hyper" kids have always been around, teachers & parents just taught & parented to adjust for it...now it's easier to feed 'em a pill).... However the only potential treatment for a condition I have which has shown huge promise but would be relatively unprofitable to the doctors & pharmaceutical companies has had their research (100% successful to this point) stopped in it's tracks indefinitely by the FDA (and the lobbyists) I hoped you meant cool-aid instead of cooled, other than that I do drink a good bit of coffee but no alcohol for years. (Interferes with all the expensive drugs the above treatment might eliminate me from having to take if they would let them do their research) If no one was unjustly detained how come they just released 2 or 300 with no charges, some held over 2 years? But no, I don't know them personally. How come documents released last week show they have been using the Patriot Act to monitor (tap etc.) GreenPeace, PETA,, The Catholic Workers Association & others (none of which I really support except for their right to do what they do in a legal, & non-violent manner) even though all were around long before 9-11, have no ties to any middle eastern groups, and especially GreenPeace, who recently had a 3 year audit by the IRS that showed their books 100% clean, have no reason to be suspect of having financial ties to any terrorist related groups. (Funny the Senate passed the extension 1 day after all that "info" was released to the public.) I have stated repeatedly I consider myself a conservative no where near "left-wing" but I am a student of history. I live in a town where every helicopter pilot who flew in Vietnam was trained. I heard myself the difference in what the "evening news" and the "government" was saying and what was really going on there from the people who had been there. I had a draft card and would have had to enlist within 3 months if they hadn't stopped the draft (that was a close one). All these years later having studied the entire history of Vietnam I understand why they hated us and why we were dead wrong for being there under the "ruse" of stopping communism, when their system was really more socialist than communist and the vast majority of their average people (peasants & farmers, shopkeepers, etc) were happy with it. Just not the formerly rich (under French Colonial rule) who made up the "puppet" south Vietnamese government we helped put in power. That started my looking closely at what was really happening instead of what "they said" many years ago. I don't believe Lee Oswald killed JFK all by himself...too many holes in that story, and I live 65 miles away from there. I just don't think Oswald could fire accurate shots the best marksmen in the US Military couldn't duplicate, even when not aiming. Have you been in politics and seen how the "system" really works, even in a small town? And how people easily manipulate what happens while another story is printed in the newspaper? Been there, done that. Saw it first hand. I was dumb enough to believe every vote counted equally and fair discussions were made by the elected officials, not by a small power group ay the coffee shop or country club...I learned. I figure if it's that way locally it's that way every step up. Fact Is: the Senate did all I was hoping for. Gave it an extension. You should be happy , nothing has changed. But I am happy a "rushed" bill with such huge constitutional impact will have at least a few months of discussion before being passed. All I wanted in the first post of the thread. Did you notice the President (who remember I voted for) said he "strongly opposed any extension of the act 2 days earlier during debate, but the day it passed was all smiles and said he was glad the Senate had done the "right thing". Made me wonder which one of those statements he really meant... I'm no liberal, but I was also in the news media as an occupation in my life, I know how what gets reported and what doesn't is decided and/or edited. I know that if you tell a lie often enough people will start to believe it. And while I watch it daily if you think Fox News is "Fair & Balanced" you need a reality check, and to pay close attention that only someone who had been in the business would. Which guest gets more airtime? When do they conveniently "have to go to break" & cut someone off? When there are several speakers who gets the last word and what was the topic? You have to watch closely. Like I said I watch them everyday (they are better than some of the others) but I have that background that understands "news" is not about "news". It's about ratings and advertising dollars. The "news" business is VERY big business. The "Fair & Balanced" is just the "mantra" that repeated often enough people start to believe and think they are seeing the whole story. Two topics are very wise to avoid: Religion & Politics, I knew this might get controversial so I broke the well-known rule about those topics. But personally, I felt it was that important. Hey, what's 6 months? For now everything remains the same. If it had not been for some "right wing" Senators questioning some of the same things I have, it would have just passed...I'm glad they decided to take a closer look. Merry Christmas. As far as I'm concerned this is a moot topic. They extended it, the deal is done. Now we'll see what happens from here.

I can’t help but add this to the discussion here because in a roundabout way it’s relevant to striping. Just the other day it was all over the news how Google was fighting the government over the release off ALL search data. Some search engines have complied but Google is resisting. What this is about is under the Patriot Act the government has demanded ALL records of ALL searches performed on the Internet search engines along with who did the searching . (In case you don’t know unless you use a paid service to “hide” you are always personally identifiable on the web, but even then they could demand the records of subscribers to those services next so what’s the point? As an example it’s harmless but this forum always knows who you are when you visit and keeps track of how many times you visit, your posts, and such. It’s nothing malicious. Every web site does it to some degree, forums a bit more for your benefit to remember what you have & have not read, display the little “new” icons, etc.) Now before you say “well I never search for anything bad, who cares?” lets go a bit further. Remember they want ALL search records and according to the news this would not just help fight “terrorism” but homegrown bomb makers, gun sellers, how-to sites for things like drugs and pornography, etc. Still don’t think it applies to you? Keep an open mind and bear with this long post... Back to my point about this misuse of the "Patriot Act". At every NPE I have attended in the last 14 years at least one person has given me a card that says “Line Stripping” and I have even seen it in the yellow pages & on people’s web sites (saw another one just last week). OK you may not know what algorithms are but they are mathematical patterns used in many things, but in this case computers. It’s how Yahoo & Google determine what to display when you search or how if you have Microsoft Products it “knows” to “pop up” with “Looks like you’re typing a letter, do you need help?” after you type Dear Sam, Now air quality laws have changed and on these forums alone many posts have been about Hotline paint and thermoplastic in recent years. So let’s say you are a decent, law-abiding soul who never does any of those nasty things described above or search for them BUT you are not the world’s best speller and you remember reading about this hot applied stuff on here so you go to a search engine and search for “hot stripping material” and a bunch of porno sites pop up...you realize your mistake but... OOPs you have just been “flagged” by the federal government as somebody who searches the Internet for pornography. You don’t know you are “on the list” and you can’t get off of it. Heaven help you if there is a company that makes paint called Young Inc. in your area and you typed “Young hot stripping material” because now you are “double-flagged” because you want kiddie-porn. No...you just wanted info on thermoplastic & hit an extra “p”? Too bad, you are on the list. You might unknowingly think they would “figure out” you were not looking for porn...No, these “bad” lists are made by computer programs using algorithms. They cannot really “think” they’re machines that just look for words, or phrases, and “pull out” ones that meet whatever criteria they have been told by their programmer to look for and add their data to the “suspect” list. This just added “fuel to my fire” about this unconstitutional act. Google has said they do not mind releasing specific records about specific things (like terrorist-related things or bombs or whatever) BUT the fight is because the government is demanding ALL records. Google wants them to come back with a request for “X” type records pertaining to phrases “Y” “Z” etc. to narrow down what they want because they believe when you and I search Google we have a right for nobody but us and Google to know what we are doing if we are not looking for anything threatening or terroristic. Mind you this is still very conservative compared to the Constitution before the Patriot Act. Back then they would have had to show cause & get a subpoena, Google isn’t even demanding that! They just don’t think they should have to turn over all the records of every search made on Google and who searched to the Feds to do with as they please ...I happen to agree. Some of the smaller search engines have just complied, Google has the money to fight, but if you feel like I do drop a line to Google and let them know you support their position. Turn over anything that looks like terrorists but leave all the rest of us legitimate searchers out of it. Thanks...end of rant for today...and a footnote: I did not hear this from the “liberals”. It was a long segment on Rupert Murdoch’s ultra-conservative Fox News Channel and remember, I voted for George, that gives me a right to gripe

I think you are just feeling guilty.

It's just politics as usually. All politicians are crooks to some degree.With Bush it's about oil and Haliburton making money.Big oil companies got together and said let's just see how much we can make and they are doing it! Why can't all stripers get together and charge a $1.00 a ft. for striping???

Because unfortunately for us people can do without striping but they can't do without gas.